Solving the Chicken-and-Egg Problem of Marketplace Scaling #LTM139

So one warning will be, don't underestimate seller experience.

Seller experience much matter as much as the final customer experience.

Right?

Make sure to grow organically.

That's very, very important because you can pump as much money as you want into a market.

If the market does not want you, then you will have a very, very hard time.

Let's talk Marketplace.

The Marketplace Podcast with Ingrid Lommer and Vana Rie Dich.

Hello, and welcome back to a new episode of let's Talk Marketplace.

And welcome to something, let's say, of a perspective change.

Because if you've been listening to us for a longer time now, you know that usually Valerie and me are the first people to call out marketplaces on behalf of their sellers.

You know, saying things like, why is this onboarding process taking so long?

And why is this market place not open in Germany or Spain yet?

What's taking them so long?

Everything like that.

But today I thought we could flip the script around a bit because it's helpful to put yourself in the shoes of your significant other, business wise speaking sometimes.

So we are changing our perspective today from seller to marketplace operator.

And we want to find out why is it actually so damn hard to roll out a marketplace across borders?

You know, because reality is you need local sellers and you need local products and you need them all before you have any traffic, basically.

So, ultimate chicken egg problem.

And how do you solve this then without hiring massive sales teams across 14 countries?

I don't know.

And our guests today claim that they have found a shortcut to this problem because we have a representative from the UK Electronics Marketplace on buy here who are at the moment currently expanding aggressively across Europe and they are doing it by partnering with Octopia, effectively buying the supply growth instead of building it manually.

So let's see how this plays out for the two of them.

And I'm really happy that with me from the operator side today is Valentin Lennarts from OnBuy.

And representing the enabler side, I welcome Paul Kotzes from October.

So great to have you on the show, you two.

Hello, Ingrid.

Great to be here.

Hello, Ingrid.

Thank you so much for inviting us.

Okay, so I think let's do a first short round of introductions and maybe please tell us who you are, what you do at your company, and what is your personal usp, so to speak.

So what are you really good at in the marketplace business?

Valentin, why don't you start?

Thanks a lot, Ingrid.

I'm regional manager for OnBuyer.

You mentioned we are an electronics marketplace, which is not Completely true.

Like we, we see ourselves as a general marketplace for everybody in every category, especially when it comes to electronics, house and garden and health and beauty and yeah, I joined on my in October and right now I'm leading the expansion in the Dach market, basically Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

My USB I think is that I bring a lot of experience when it comes to e Commerce.

The last 10 years I was lucky enough to be part of ebay, of Wayfair, of Zalando and I'm very, very happy to use this proficiency and this knowledge to make on Vibro as well.

Okay, sounds good.

Okay, Paul, why don't you continue?

Paul?

So I'm sales director and marketing for Octopia.

I'm here for four years and a half now, almost from the beginning of Octopia.

So I had a chance to see all the partnerships we have made since the beginning of Octopia now.

And my role there as a marketing director is to ensure the promotion and to get more notoriety around Octopia all across Europe.

And as a sales director I'm also able to conclude all the partnership we have with marketplace like Envoy to to keep make Octopia growing and it's pool of seller as well growing.

And I think USP could be the fact that we really have Adoptopia and as a sales director I have to do it, I have to have the same with all my customers is to have a tailor made approach.

Make sure that every partnership has to be very singular and very tailor made to each marketplace strategy we're working with.

Okay, yeah, I think we'll talk a bit more about what you offer for Marketplaces later on.

But yeah, for now we know who you are, who we are talking to and we can dive into finding out how to scale a marketplace across Europe.

Before we do that, very quick look at our partner pixelmola.

Marketplaces love video.

But for many brands, video production still feels like a problem.

Expensive, slow and almost impossible to scale across the whole assortment.

There's studios and camera teams and editing and localization and all of that adds up quite quickly.

Which is why on marketplaces, video often end up just being reserved for hero products.

And that's exactly where things are changing now.

Because today you don't actually have to shoot a video to get a video performance.

Instead, brands can work with the assets they already have if they used AI tools.

Tools like PixelModa for example, they turn a small set of existing product images into photorealistic video sequences.

You upload four or five photos and the AI generates the Movement, depth and drain, realistic fit behavior.

There's no camera team, no cutting, no long production cycles.

The result is video that finally scales across the whole assortment.

And then video becomes affordable and it stops being a premium feature.

It becomes more of a baseline, more sales without higher costs.

If you want to know more about how that works, check out our blog post on the topic or listen to the podcast we had last November, I think with JaniCeratzi from Pixelmotor.

We'll link both of them in the show notes.

Okay, right.

I guess then let's dive into the discussion and in this case let's start with the marketplace operator.

Valentin, you already said that On Buy is now going for Central Europe in a way.

So what are your plans at the moment?

Where are you heading with your international expansion?

What is the, the agenda for the next 12 months?

What are you trying to achieve?

Oh wow.

The next 12 months will be, I think, very, very interesting and challenging when it comes to growth.

Not because we don't think that we can do it, but basically because we have so many things on the agenda that we actually want to achieve.

Right.

I mean we managed to achieve about 3,000% of growth within the last three, three years in UK especially.

And so, so we see our system, our business model works especially cashback is very, very successful when it comes to that.

We managed to have achieved basically a regular customer base of 52% of our GMV.

These are customers you basically don't find anywhere else.

Right.

And since the marketplace or the overall market, the E commerce market gets more and more fragmented into little pieces.

We want piece of the cake and are on the best way to get it.

Okay, that sounds like a bed of roses, but I don't believe it is.

I mean internationalization normally isn't.

So let's talk about some of the challenges that you're absolutely meeting.

I mean you mentioned it absolutely right.

Like building up a loyal customer base and a loyal seller base in the particular country is quite the challenge.

Right.

So meaning that we actually have to get like a two sided approach that we have used that we want to use particular in the future is basically we do have our own local team which is focusing on the specific markets and their specialties, etc.

Like we have someone who is responsible for Western Europe and Southern Europe.

I'm More responsible for the middle.

The middle part you can say.

Right.

So we bring in our own expertise to grow these particular markets and also use the context that we have already built up with their ears to.

To build up the marketplace on top of that.

And here is where Octopia comes into the play, is that we are going into strategic partnerships with integrators with ERP systems and that we actually want to use their tools, their infrastructure, their knowledge of the market to be accessible for as many sellers as possible.

Paul, handing over to you in this point, because I think we need to clear up what Octopia is doing specifically for marketplaces and also for marketplace sellers, because your business model is not that easy to understand.

So maybe can you give us some insights in what you're doing for the operators, but also for the sellers?

Yeah, because you are right in the middle, in fact, of all this ecosystem between sellers and marketplaces.

All right.

So basically Autopia has several business units, either some services dedicated to the marketplace to the sellers, but we work for both, actually.

Right.

And regarding the specific contract we have and relationship with Envoy, we go to merchant as a service, which is the only end to end seller services and dedicated for marketplace.

Right.

It means that basically we take care of all the bottlenecks, all the milestone a seller has to run through to join a new marketplace.

Right.

And this is exactly where, as Valentin say, octopia comes in to help and to contribute to the expansion of on buy outside of their domestic buy of their domestic market.

Right.

Which is why the uk, because what we do is all the milestone, we are running it for the sellers.

It means identify the right seller for the marketplace, contact the sellers, support the seller onboarding, including all those operational tasks, Kawaishi collection, mapping of the catalog, creating the store, creating the product, etc.

And finally go live and publish your product on the final marketplace.

Right.

We are going through all those steps step by step.

Right.

And we do it especially because we want to minimize the effort for both sides.

As Valentin said, when you open a new country, you cannot support all the complexity the same way you do on your original market, because you are facing competitors who know the market, they have hundreds of people dedicated and you don't when you just join Germany, France, Italy, Spain.

Right.

So we are here to allow you to work at scale and to compete with all those marketplaces without adding the extra resources.

Right.

And for the seller side, what we are doing is joining a new marketplace can look as a bet, as a gamble.

And what we say is, because we take Care of all the complexity.

We vanish the bet.

You say let's join Unboy.

It won't cost you nothing because we will do the job for you.

And then you get advantage of all the uniqueness of Unboy particularities and Unboy sales channel on other markets.

Okay, Valentin, over to you again.

Because if I researched on Bike correctly then you are a company that is known for building their own proprietary platforms, their own technology and not using that many external partners.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

So how did it come for you into place that you actually wanted to partner with someone as Octopia and basically handing the full seller aggregation part of the business for your international side to an external partner?

I mean we do have to, to see these things differently, right?

We do.

We, we do have on the one side obviously our, our platform that, that, that we build our ourselves, that we engage with ourselves, that we basically use our own resources to build that up.

That's the, the one point.

And the, the other point is actually the excellent means the acquisition of sellers that we have.

Right.

So for that it's not necessary to build up our own systems for that if there's already an ecosystem like Octopia available which we can just basically pull into.

Right.

So it is absolutely true that all of our systems are basically built for from our own, out of our own office, from our own people.

Right.

But when it comes to seller acquisition, acquisition, we are more than happy to work with with Utopia.

What is that a scenario that often happens to you when you work with marketplaces that they are and they have normally built their own technical technological legacy.

Of course.

And then they are looking for a partner that is easy to integrate for one part of their business.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Because in fact when you want to expand outside of your original market time to market matters a lot because you will make noise many marketing around the fact that hey, I will arrive in this country, etc.

Etc.

But if you make a lot of noise and when the final consumer go into your website and it's like not something very different than what there is in your market or if you just say I open a new market for my initial pool of sellers, that's it, you are not making you very different.

Right.

You need all those cross border sellers and you need the top local sellers to be able to fight in an equal fight with all your new competitors.

Right.

So of course if you want to be fast and compete at scale, partnership is great because we work on buy will focus on what they are good for their DNA As Valentin said, on Buy there is a huge customer loyal base which makes them very unique.

Right.

So you can focus on what you are doing great and all the rest where you added value is less obvious.

The operational task identifies the good sellers, fine tunes the catalog, etc.

You can delegate it to a partnership who has already the ecosystem ready to go.

So we have set up a huge ecosystem at Ectopia because we have 50 feed manager connected, we have 10,000 sellers, we have people in all languages to hire all the European sellers.

So it's ready to use.

Right.

So instead of waiting years to be able to have the same weapons than your competitors, you can have it ready right now when you open your new marketplace.

So what part of this ecosystem have you used so far at OnBuy, Valentin?

How many of those sellers have you acquisitioned for On Buy?

What are you using Octopia for specifically?

I mean basically right now we are using octopia to scale hard and fast in the particular countries where we are basically doing new business.

Right right now with the great integration that we have into our own systems.

Basically we are trying, even though we are building our own thing, we try to be as accessible as possible for other partners, whether it comes to octopia, plenty markets, whatever.

Right.

So what we want to make sure is that we scale fast.

So.

Right.

So right now we're focus on getting new sellers onboarded.

And on top of that, I know that Octopia has many, many more, more modules which we definitely can look at in the future.

But right now our focus is basically to get our seller base to basically lift up our supply in the local markets and then we see what other modules we can use to grow further.

Okay, so how does this look from the seller's perspective?

Maybe Paul May, you can describe what it looks like if a seller that is, I don't know, in Spain trying to sell on On Buy, trying to list their products on On Buy and does that through Octopia.

How does that process for the seller look like?

So the first thing is very important to say that is you have to be eligible to join On Buy first.

So what we are, when we set up the partnership is first to understand what is owned by strategy and what are their criteria to hire the seller.

Right.

Because from one marketplace to another one of course criteria could be very different.

Right.

So it's not like unbuy have access to 10,000 sellers and let's wait and see and you can check it out.

Some sellers, maybe some of them are good for them, maybe some of them are not.

We do an initial selection and this selection has to be finally validated as well by unbuy.

Right?

So if senior wants to go to unbuy, he has to fit into the criteria list of unbuy.

Then if it's done for both sides, he wants to go unbuy one theme.

Then we run through all the operational process, right?

So we say, okay, he needs to accept the condition of unbuy.

Then we create an environment where he can duplicate his catalog.

So we take care of all the process.

We collect the kyc.

If there is a gap between On Buy, PSP and rpsp, we create the stores, we create the product and we also fine tune the catalog to make sure that it's not just a duplication on what the seller is doing on other marketplaces, but to make sure that the catalog is really tailor made for On Buy.

It doesn't be the same pricing, not maybe the same product, not maybe the same description itself.

So we want to make sure that it's a tailor made approach for each catalog.

That's where we make the difference.

If not, we just duplicate a catalog and that's it.

But we don't bring any value, we don't enhance the performance of each seller.

Right.

So we went through all of that and even on top of that, this is what Valentin were talking.

After the first month we are able, if the marketplaces agree to also doing the account management of these sellers to follow them and make sure they over perform and they stay loyal to the new marketplace.

Because the idea is not just to connect the sellers then let them alone in a new market.

He doesn't know and after six months he will churn.

So we don't want that.

Right.

So this is why we keep a huge human support to make sure he can stay and over perform.

Right.

And maybe that that is also.

Sorry, if I may add to what Paul said and this is something what makes us still special.

We take great pride and great value in trying to talk to our sellers in person as well.

So whenever there is any kind of issue, you or a seller wants to get to know us.

You don't need to wait for a call for two weeks.

You just write us an email and we get in touch as quickly as possible.

That's what I heard actually from the market.

Yes.

So I wanted to fall back on the point that you just raised Paul because you said you are making sure that that the catalog of each marketplace that you are referring your sellers to is still unique and different and that each Seller is going for maybe for a different part of their, their own assortment or for a different price category or even for different descriptions so that the marketplaces stay distinguishable.

I think that is a very interesting point because this is something that I heard raised actually as a concern that if you are, you know, listing your products with one of one marketplace aggregator that basically what comes out of it are lots of marketplaces that look just the same and are basically interchangeable.

But what you are now stressing is that that's actually not the case.

So can you maybe go a bit deeper into this?

So how do the assortments really differ between the marketplaces you are tending to.

Yeah, it's a fair questioning really because at the end there is a lot of European European sellers.

And if you have all the same what could be different for the final consumer?

Right.

First of all, the fact that we have 50 marketplaces connected across different sectors, different activities.

So if you are picking in a pool of 10,000 sellers who evolve each year with 20 millions product, you will have many way to find yourself different.

Right.

And even on top of that, even if you are working in the same industry, the positioning of each marketplace is not necessarily the same.

The DNA is not the same.

What you offer to the seller is not the same.

So at the end of the game, the pitch we do to attract the sellers and make them join marketplace won't be the same.

It will reflect this differentiation.

So if you are a very specialist, you will have this kind of sellers who have a small catalog but with very top brands product.

If you're a generalist, you may be more open to a generalist seller.

So you won't look at the the same.

Right?

And even in a case where you want to have the same kind of sellers, the fact that Valentin and own buy team can take advantage of our huge customer close relationship.

Each marketplace has a customer success manager as one single point of contact from octopia.

And his job is not only to do the intermediaries between seller and marketplace.

It's also to take the best of each seller catalog to put in light what makes sense for the marketplace.

For instance, you can say there is customer success manager who make a benchmark on pricing comparison on each market and say, okay, I see that on buy, for instance, you want to go in Germany, you don't have this product.

This product is not yet ready on some of your competitors.

I do have some sellers who have it.

So let's try to put this in visibility and let's try in a couple of Weeks to see if there is some traction on the market.

So it's really like to make sure to fine tune the catalog for each specific market.

Works work in Germany, doesn't work necessarily in Spain.

In Italy the pricing should not be the same.

So that's the daily basis activities of the customer success manager who is working with each marketplace, who are working please and, and actually.

Right.

So, and, and in fact when you look at the result Right now, 75% of our GMV comes from new SKUs, new products that were not yet really listed on the marketplace.

So most of the GMV we generate are about innovative products, new ones.

So there is not many situation where you have exactly the same catalog.

So what you tell me is that marketplaces that work with you can be a bit picky about what sellers they accept and what products they accept.

So Valentin, tell me how picky are you at the moment at nonbuy.

So what are your specific KPIs, what you are looking for?

If you are going for external sellers to help you with your international expansions, what do they have to bring?

Well, we obviously we do have our own verification process, right.

Where we basically add up onto Octopia's already very very high standards.

We just found out that we have that we need to have a few things going on so that partners can be successful on our platform.

Right.

For example, maybe the most important KPI is how big is your performance on other marketplaces?

Or maybe not how big, but how good are you?

Are your ratings on other marketplaces already?

Right.

For example, a seller, a potential seller who is not performing very very great on competitive marketplaces like eBay, Amazon etc.

Has a very, very low chance to get accepted at our own marketplace.

Why?

Because we have such a loyal customer base.

Because we want to keep it and because we want to grow it.

Right.

So basically, sorry chiming in here, you mean by performing not good as you, you mean in terms of customer satisfaction.

Or in terms of customer satisfaction, delivery, logistics, returns, etc, whatever is necessary to make the customer happy in the end.

Right.

We, since most of competitors do have like a rating system and that we see we have like a seller who, a potential seller who is not performing that great in that area, then it's probably going to be a no.

On top of that it's also pretty important for, for us that the seller is also basically situated locally in that particular country where he tries to sell in at this point, which he is still getting the possibility to sell into 21 market places or countries from our side on our marketplace.

But still we want to make sure that the seller is real and basically not a garage company built up just to scoop up as much revenue as possible.

And on top of that we do have several KPIs which come on top.

But I think it would basically not fit into this podcast to work them out.

To, to work them all out.

Okay, but I didn't hear anything about product categories or product assortments.

So you're really open on those fronts so far?

Yeah, yes, we are.

I mean products which we see work better on our platform.

As I already mentioned, it's electronics, house and garden.

Health and beauty is going really, really well.

But when it comes to toys.

Super interesting.

DIY is super, super interesting.

We try to position ourselves as a generalistic marketplace.

I mean again, referring to our loyal customer base.

These people try to buy as much as they can from one marketplace.

Right.

And why not give them what they want?

So coming back to also what you have asked Paul before that I think that every marketplace needs to be handled as a like a completely new country.

When you expand in, right.

You don't know what kind of items will go well or bad.

You do have an idea that probably your best sellers will perform well as.

As well.

But sometimes you, you do have like a new random SKU which somehow over performs everything.

Right.

So we give our sellers the part of the possibility to try us out.

On top of that, we give them the possibility to try us out for free.

So every seller who joins via octopia gets a three month period of basically no costs.

So they have all the freedom and all the time that they need to test our systems.

That's a nice boon.

Of course coming back to the question of seller quality because both of you have been stressing that point that it is important, especially for a marketplace that is coming new to a new country and who has to prove itself to the customers that you have sellers who really live up to that standard.

So checking the quality is beforehand is the first thing.

But what you do, and I think I'll address this to Paul because I know that you also have to react if sellers in your catalog are not, you know, up to par.

So what do you do if sellers are missing the marks, if they are not performing as well as your marketplace partners would want, that you push them out of your catalog.

What, what happens then?

Yeah, in fact the.

The best way to master quality is to master the interest the initial.

That's the point number.

But just to give you an idea, this is a topic we have Been managing for years because we are hiring sellers on the behalf of also marketplaces.

So we need to be really accurate in our initial selection, right?

So just to give you an idea, we receive nearly 100,000 seller application per year to join Octopia community, right.

So there is a really huge selection, right?

Initially because of the compliance KYC, the completeness of the catalog to avoid any fraud, etc.

So we do this massive check initially.

Then you add on top of that the criteria for the marketplace itself.

So you have a double check at the entrance.

And then when it's an ongoing sellers, we are definitely following according with on by team the level of quality, the level of requirement, right.

So as Valentin said, for unbuy for instance, loyalty is key.

So what impacts a lot of the loyalty is the delivery experience.

So for unbuy specifically we are very carefully check what about the delivery weight, the claims rate to make sure to maintain a high level of notation to make sure to be consistent with the expectation of unbuy.

Right.

For instance, if something go wrong at any moment, unbuy has the ability to suspend or exclude a seller if he wants because it doesn't fit with his criteria.

Right.

So he can master the property even if the seller is coming from octopia.

Right.

On the same side, Octopia can take the responsibility if there is like a fraud, something like very strong that can impact all the marketplace to kick out of the seller.

Of course, if it's something that can have an impact for all the marketplace, right?

So there is this double check all time long to make sure to maintain the quality.

And actually I think in average octopia seller, if I remember correctly, has 15% NPS in average, more than regular sellers because of this double check and this ongoing quality assessment we are doing with the marketplace team.

Okay, looking a bit at the time, I'd like to circle back to something that Valentin said before, which I'm definitely stealing.

That is, if you are, you should treat a new marketplace like a new country.

I like that.

But if you are a new marketplace in a new market, that's like two news in one row.

And I think you are at the moment tripling this by starting out in Germany, which is an incredibly competitive market inside Europe.

As you and I both German people know, Amazon's incredibly dominant here.

And then you have the category killer behind Amazon, like I Zalando for fashion and auto for living, home and living and media marked for electronics.

You name Them.

So where's your place in all of that with OnBuy, how are you finding the gap?

Because we've been talking a lot about seller quality.

But is that enough to find the gap on this market?

That's a question to me, I believe.

Right, yes.

Well, it is a great question.

And honestly, this is where a lot of market bases really focus find out who they are.

So basically when we first looked at Europe, the assumption was that the biggest hurdle would be technology or regulation.

But just as you said, it is basically right now scaling our sellers and find our our place in the market, just as you, you said.

I mean competition is not bad and giving the customer more options to buy from is definitely a benefit.

It gives them transparency, it gives them choice and also gives the sellers the possibility to basically not put everything into the same basket so they can set themselves up as broadly as they want to.

But though our positioning comes in the end, we are not a luxury premium marketplace like Zalando, which is completely focused on one particular niche.

But we still want to be accessible for everybody and the broad customer when it comes, for example, like in our average basket value that we are having, it's about €80 at that point.

So I would say we try to push somehow in between ebay and Amazon when it comes to our positioning in general.

Okay.

I will be definitely following that journey over the next year and we'll be very interested to see where you're going with this.

As the time is running out.

I'd like to try a new thing that I thought about which is a closing round.

I'd like to call one thing and I'd like to give you several questions and have your answer with just one thing that you can think of.

Let's say one piece of specific advice for an operator starting an expansion today.

So what is your one learning, Valentin?

Get yourselves a great partner.

Okay, good.

That that one goes on a T shirt.

Definitely.

Paul, what would you say one learning for that for an operator?

So I've got the pressure now to.

Be to be very short.

Well, you mean, I think that you still start with the supply before the marketing.

So start to fuel your catalog with a top local seller with a cross border seller before to make some noise because even if you have a big traffic, if you don't have the right offer for your specific new market, there is no match.

Right.

So start with the supply, then marketing.

Okay.

And what would be one warning?

So what should operators not do if they want to avoid big costs?

Paul?

I think that sometimes we always about talk about the marketplace selectivity.

Right?

But we forget that sellers are very selective too.

There is only 5% of the sellers go on more than three marketplaces.

And sometimes we forget we are selective.

They are selective too.

So one warning will be don't underestimate seller experience.

Seller experience matter as much as the final customer experience.

Right?

That's a great point.

Okay, Valentino, one warning.

Make sure to grow organically.

That's very, very important because you can pump as much money as you want into a market.

If the market does not want you or you do not have the capabilities to grow on an from.

From your own organically, then you will have a very, very hard time.

Okay.

And to close this up, your 1 bet for the future, what do you think will be, which trend will dominate the marketplace business in Europe in the Next, let's say 12 months.

Because things are moving so fast at the moment, I wouldn't want to see it look at 18 months at the moment, Valentin, maybe.

I think pathback is then the next big thing that we will still continue to use and more and more players will adapt as they will see our success.

Well, okay, Interesting.

Paul.

I think about the trend, which is not a new trend, of course, but I think the share of refurbished will take another step right now.

And I think which is important is because we work especially with European marketplace, and I think they do have a window to take because when it comes to refurbish, I think the consumer trust a bit more somehow European marketplace and US or Chinese marketplace.

So if you are able to increase the share of refurbished product in your own catalog, you may have an advantage to take face to the big US and Chinese giant.

I guess I'll absolutely second that.

Valentine Enbai is strong in secondhand as well, aren't you?

Refurbished, yes.

Not secondhand particularly, but refurbished, yes.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay.

Right, the two of you, that makes our time for today.

Thank you very much for joining me and for helping me change perspective as I'm normally looking at what sellers are expecting for marketplaces.

And it was great to hear the other side of this business relationship for today.

So thank you for joining me.

Thanks a lot, Ingrid.

Thank you so much.

Right.

And if you like listening to us today, you could make me very happy if you followed us or rated our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, wherever you are.

Listening to us, of course.

And by tuning in next week.

Right.

And then for today, thank you very much and bye.

Bye.

Bye bye.

You listen to let's Talk Marketplace, the Marketplace podcast with Ingrid Lommer and Valerie Dichtel.