11 Giants, 83% Share: A Data-Driven Map of Marketplace Concentration #LTM149

First of all, whenever you move into international markets, a delusion effect will happen.

Why?

Well, of course you're not as strong in the new market than in the old market.

So the average aov, the average frequency, everything will drop.

Let's Talk Marketplace.

The Marketplace podcast with Ingrid Lommer and Vanavidisti.

Hello and welcome back to let's Talk Marketplace.

I'm Ingrid and I'm really glad you tuned in again, especially today for episode 149, because now we have an episode for all my fellow figure nerds out there.

And we'll dive into which marketplaces are growing, which platforms are relevant and what kind of regions and categories and how the 3Pmodel as a who is faring this year.

And I've just got the right guest to help me with these figures and the heavy deep dive that I plan for this episode, and that is Friedrich, Friedrich Wans, co founder of etdb, the E commerce database, I would say a purveyor of incredibly detailed worldwide e commerce data.

So welcome Friedrich.

It's really good to have you back on let's Talk Marketplace.

Hello.

Great.

You were our guest, I think nearly two years ago, something like that, way back in episode 74.

And there we also juggle world e commerce numbers to our heart's content.

And since then there has been massive evolvement in ECDB because I'm a regular user, as you know.

I love to look into it, look at the numbers that you are offering and it seems you're pushing out new data sets nearly every week.

So yeah, lots has happened in the last year as little two years.

And now you're back freshly home from Shop Talk in Las Vegas, if I'm correct, where you presented your four key hypothesis on marketplaces.

So yeah, that's what we're going to talk about today.

But first, how was Vegas?

Sorry?

First of all, it was the first time for me to be there in general and it was in a positive way fascinating because I always expected everything bigger and farther, et cetera.

But in general, I've been to the Shop Talk in Europe and you have roughly 5,000 people there.

We had 11, 12,000 people.

So you could say for all speeches, for everything, it was twice as many people.

And then the second part, which I enjoyed and I know it's a total prejudice, but we always hear that Americans are slightly more optimistic wherever you slightly more bold, slightly more ambitious and that is at least true for the retailers in the us.

I mean they do have challenges.

For instance, they're in the U.S. amazon, Walmart, Costco almost dominates everything.

I mean it is even stronger the concentration than we see it here in Europe.

But despite that, everybody was looking for oh, what can we do New of course everybody was talking about AI.

No one really knows.

But it's really lovely to see so many people a bit like insecure but talking so much about it.

Yeah, that sounds like it's a bit crazy and a bit fun and yeah, I think you're right that this might be something of a culture shock for Europeans when we come to an American conference and everyone is like so positive and optimistic and everything's fine.

I'm not sure shock right word.

I mean we live for the moment in a time where thanks to wars and yeah this very functional government where we actually need from time to time actually something like a bath in happiness and positivity.

So maybe less shock, more.

Hey, that's good to have it from time to time.

I can relate to that.

Yeah, right, great.

Before we dive into the figures you brought to Vegas and have now with you today, maybe for those living under a rock for the last two years and who haven't heard about ECDB so far, just explain a bit.

What is your baby doing?

How do you get your numbers?

What is ACDB and who is it for sure?

So number, what are we to simplify a market intelligence platform for e commerce in a wide sense?

What do we do?

We do calculate revenues and drivers of revenues for all retailers and stores for all product categories.

Very much in detail now for all Amazon marketplaces and soon as well for all e commerce brands.

Brands as in it could be Witter Sport, Chocolate, it could be whatever and we will basically see how they, how successful are they in the e commerce space.

So really our long term vision is everything to need to know on a slightly more strategic level from all aspects from retailers, brands, products, markets.

You will find with us.

Yeah, it's a well of information which I always like to bath in.

How do you get your numbers?

First of all, in the most cases we don't get them directly from the retailers.

It's not that all the retailer says, listen, we want to send them all our data and be super transparent.

Surprising a certain way they do exactly the opposite.

It's quite interesting to see even stock listed companies such as Amazon try to hide as much as possible.

I mean they're so dominant and if you see, oh, this is revenue for marketplaces International, that's it.

You don't get anything do it.

Of course, as we don't get them, we estimate them.

And there the actually the interesting part is where we get our input data and how do we estimate them.

So we have four major sources.

I would say number one, we do buy transaction data.

Transaction data is like credit card statement, et cetera, et cetera.

It's interesting, it's not well known, but there is actually a market where you can go to credit card companies, large banks, banks, et cetera, and buy huge amounts.

You don't know the name, so I don't know Engvid Loma spent so much, which is a thing.

But what I do know is someone in this region with this income and then I see really every single part of the, of the credit card, et cetera.

So it really helps me.

And if you returned it or not.

So that is one large part.

And we have the data especially for Europe and North America.

For the other countries that's a little bit more complicated.

Second part is we basically scrape every single website you can think of and basically try to catalyze them.

And that helps us a lot.

Third, we use quite a lot of traffic data and including what is called clickstream data.

What's the difference between is traffic data is what you know from Semrush and similarweb.

Clickstream data is basically the level before where basically you know how users surfs around a certain website.

And last, we use all publicly available data.

Okay, so that's it.

And then of course the art lies in the algorithm.

Meaning how do you bring it together and how do you constantly.

How do you constantly improve it?

Because whenever you start something, it is a little bit like you start a new vineyard at the beginning.

The first year will be not really the best wine you ever produced.

And then it honestly takes time, over time to improve.

And for us there was really something which changed our world because we have a new friend.

And this friend is French and it's called Claude is the best thing what happened to us.

And so just so you know, it is basically a tool for an anthropic and.

And basically they had it before, but they launched a new version in October which was so much better than everything before.

And where before when we did certain analysis, cross check, et cetera, there was still a little bit of manual work, believe it or not involved.

And since now basically we use for, I mean there's still analysts, but for almost everything we use cloud agents in order to improve things.

And that that has.

Hence we launch More hence we have all these new data point and hopefully hence you see really a quality jump since October,.

You can see that.

Yeah.

As an avid user, I mean, I've been always a fan of your figures because I like that.

I mean there are, we have often discussed this.

Really, there are sometimes areas where I think, yeah, this is a bit wrong or this might be slightly off kilter, but overall it is a very good overview.

And you, you are using the same method to get all the figures for all the companies, all the marketplaces in all countries in all categories.

And that alone makes it gives it a quality that is unmatched because you can really compare different data sets because they are based on the same method.

So that alone is great.

But yeah, since October things are really getting crazy.

Whatever you're doing there, keep doing it.

Yeah, it's really cool.

Yeah.

Anyway, I mean, before I get too much into, you know, data nerding and.

If I may, it is honestly fun.

Sorry if, if you're in product development with.

I'm sorry, everybody has this passion.

Some people like sales, etc.

And we do this, of course, all.

But what drives.

And when the two founders think very much in product, the.

So we basically launch two new products right now, which I can later explain, but it is really saying because now you can so much easier analyze data.

So now you can go and really say, okay, go through all the top 10 different Amazon marketplaces.

How is my product performing?

How's my brand performing?

How is the market performing in each category?

How much sellers you have?

How much is Amazon basically dominating certain things?

And why is it important?

Because that's for us a helpful tool plus a huge input for all the calculations.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, we'll dive into that a bit deeper later.

But maybe let's just look at the most outstanding figures in your presentation from Vegas to just dive a bit deeper into what marketplaces are now doing based on all the data that you are gathering.

And maybe I'll start out with the number that caused the most raised eyebrows when I used it in presentation in Berlin.

That is a figure from UCDB from your own prognosis.

And yeah, it always raises eyebrows.

And when I use it, which I find interesting, does that happen to you as well, that people look at these numbers, especially marketplace numbers, because they sometimes look a bit out of this world when you look at these huge numbers.

Do people believe you when you show them?

That's a Very good one.

First of all, let's see do we still have when we show how dominant our marketplaces overall and then if the marketplace model is dominant, how dominant are the top 10 or 11 marketplaces?

Whenever we show this, and we will go into it in a second, people are shocked, honestly shocked, especially if you're a small store.

And second, there is at the beginning a little bit of.

Can I really believe it?

Yeah.

And I wonder why this is.

And I think the main explanation is if you live mainly in the German e commerce world and you are basically dating back 10 to 20 years, then it's absolutely understandable that you say, I don't understand it.

I mean, I have my store.

What's wrong?

Whereas obviously, because US and China are dominating so much these markets and we are talking about global figures and if you see how marketplaces and the 3p share is growing so much more, then you realize, wow, yes, it is true that overall if you look at the market, that's a trend.

And yes, certain niches where certain stores, they're doing great and they defend their position, but it is rarely the source of hypergrowth.

Yeah, absolutely true.

Let's maybe look a bit deeper into those top 10 marketplaces you were just mentioning because the growth is very much concentrated on the top region and this concentration has just grown worse I think over the last years.

But now what I read from the figures is that this top share of top 10 marketplaces, which is huge, is still growing, but not as fast, of course, because there's not much room to grow if you're already owning over 80% of the market anyway.

But inside this top 10 group, there are a few players that are growing exponentially, like for example, Temu or Shane or TikTok Shop as well.

So am I right in interpreting these numbers that these new players are taking the butter of the cake of Amazon?

There's an easy answer and, but let me give it a little bit of framework.

Yes, first of all, you heard that, okay, basically the marketplace dominate everything.

If you look at the top 11, which is Amazon and his 10 friends, you look at the top 11, they for the moment have a market share of 83%.

So just again, 11 companies have 83% of the entire marketplaces and the marketplace basically dominates the e commerce there.

So that is huge concentration.

I mean, to have it even more concentrated would be just madness almost now to your point.

And second, actually, interestingly, whereas Amazon was a couple of years ago still number two because of these huge Chinese companies, now Amazon is number one.

I Mean that is something but indeed it's a bit like Volkswagen.

Volkswagen used to be one number one.

But it's definitely challenged by a couple of companies.

So if you go through all the others, the TEMU chain, the all that we know, the TikTok shops, et cetera.

Indeed they're all of them growing faster.

And if you go hey, growth, what does it mean if you go at the number of buyers, buying frequency and the GMV per buyers, all these three levers or sources of growth, they're all outperforming Amazon in it.

And that is.

Well, it is as it is.

That's good.

There's some movement but it's a bit scary for Amazon in one that is fine that they have to catch up all three.

That is really difficult.

Yeah, that's absolutely.

The string now discussion is a lot concentrated on these top 10 players that you have also named like Amazon and all these Chinese shops and Walmart, AliExpress Shopee, you name them.

Yeah.

But apart from these huge generalists at Marketplace Universe, we often talk about regional players that are really strong in their own core region, for example, or specialists that are really strong in their own category.

What do you think about these singular islands of growth in certain areas?

Are they, you know, are we looking at them a bit too favorably?

Maybe because we are, I don't know, want to write about different things such as Amazon all the time or is that all right that we are pointing out.

Okay, look at also that category leader.

Or this region leader, the A number one.

I think you're correct.

I mean it's boring to write just about Amazon.

There are other.

There are.

Sorry, there are other business models and please, what kind of arrogant.

These are companies which grow by 10 12% et cetera and huge companies.

So of course it's worth mentioning it and let me just say I'm honestly extremely positive at present how Zalando turned itself around over the last three years and what they did so 100%.

Yes, that is right.

Look at it.

Of course you can always cut it in different parts.

We look as category specialist, how they're doing.

We look indeed as you said, the homegrown specialist.

I mean for instance Walmart is so interesting.

Walmart was able to really invent themselves and are now so successful in the US as an E commerce prime for a long time.

But it's still.

And then you have the cross market specialists which are the Amazons, the Alibaba, et cetera.

So long story short, yes, it's worse and I think these are the Three groups.

And I would look at them differently mentally I have to say from them certain regional market leader.

Interesting.

And then I do love the category specialists.

Somehow there is the most magic in it because everyone has a little bit its own way of doing things.

Yeah, maybe let's dive a bit into these category specialists.

How do you with your figures identify like a winner in these areas?

What are you looking for?

What numbers are you looking for?

And how can you say, okay, even if that particular player might not, you know, rank in the top 20 just because they have a smaller GMV, they are still really relevant for that category.

Number one, just to understand the how do we define them?

And then I know till but for market data it's always important the definition.

So for us it is people which basically have a main share in one or two categories and then they become specialists.

And the more you see it is broader split regarding categories.

And for once they're journalists.

I know it's just to say, to make this clear for us, one major part of analysis was really to look at these specialists have over the past years started to add categories which are close to their core categories.

Number one, to state the opposite.

Why do they do that?

Well, obviously they want to increase their aov, meaning they don't want constantly to push for new buyers and acquire new buyers, new buyer, new buyers.

And therefore you increase the lifetime value of your customers.

Now that's obvious.

But the question is, was this actually a successful strategy or not?

And we basically then took all the category specialists, I think 127 if I remember correctly, and divided them in pure players and players which added certain categories and compared the growth rate.

Let me see before I invent any kind of numbers which we chose.

Never ever do.

There is a five point growth difference.

That sounds a little for people, but if you have an average of 127 companies, that's actually huge and long story short, so yes, it pays to move into adjacent categories and develop them.

I find that interesting because that is something that we have also seen.

Players like mediamarkt is one of the main players here that has been opening their marketplace a lot to adjoining kind of category.

Someone there told me like everything that has a plug basically is interesting for us, even if it's not strictly electronic.

So that is something that was interesting.

And also declatlan is also doing that with opening their assortment, especially through the marketplace, to other categories.

And I find it interesting that you say, like, okay, after an initial, initial period, where it just takes a bit of time for these categories, new categories to evolve, you can actually see it in the data and interesting.

You can see it in data.

But I do talk to some marketplaces, YouTube much more.

But I have the feeling, you can feel you have some marketplaces which say, hey, let's try it out and see what happens.

And quite often I would say, yeah, something happened, that's nice.

And then you have marketplaces where you see it is a little bit more strategic approach where it's, let's try it out, but really push it, really develop it, really integrate it.

It's not like, oh, let's add a little bit of boss tools, but really see how does it fit, how do we change our advertising strategy, et cetera.

And in most cases, I think that is the right approach.

The other one is it's a little bit amorphous.

But I think if you want to really move a brand into a new category, you have to do as well a lot on the marketing side.

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

The other strategy I often see with marketplaces, especially when it comes to generalists, is international growth.

So there's for example from Germany, the example of Kaufland, who is expanding from the German market to Slovakia and Poland and Czechia and Austria, now France and Italy.

And there are other marketplaces that do the same, like on Buy is exploring opportunities inside in Europe.

BNQ is the same.

So can you see that in the data as well?

Is that doing them good?

The, the.

Sorry, why do I, why do I hesitate?

First of all, whenever you move into international markets, a delusion effect will happen.

Why?

Well, of course you're not as strong in the new market than in the old market.

So the average aov, the average frequency, everything will drop.

Do we see that nevertheless, then over time that once you moved into the other market, the growth rate takes up?

Yes, we see the same.

Is it true for everyone?

No, it is not.

And I know, I mean, I know you know and I know all your listeners know.

Just because you moved to Czechoslovakia doesn't mean we are successful.

And we have so many examples where people moved into certain countries and withdraw because they hadn't had enough support.

They weren't not a unique offering in the country.

But I do believe there will be more and more concentration as well in Europe.

And I do believe, especially if you want to be a general marketplace, you have to grow into other countries, otherwise you will disappear.

So I think especially for Calfont Media market, et cetera, of course it's the right approach.

It's not a guarantee for success, but absolutely, I would do the same.

Yeah, interesting.

Let's maybe now dive a bit deeper into the marketplaces, or I should say the retailers that have opened themselves to marketplaces, which we now can do.

Because in the earlier days of ECGB you were just giving out retail data.

So for one retailer you had like overall gmv.

But since from last year, you are now offering to have a closer look into 1P and 3P GMVs of retailers, which gives us marketplace specialists the opportunity to really find out, okay, how strong is the marketplace inside this retailer's business model?

Which when I first saw that in the back end of ecdb, I was like, wow, that's interesting.

And the second question I had, okay, how do you do that?

Are you kidding me?

Come on.

What is the method behind that?

Can you first explain that?

And then we can dive a bit deeper into the effects that this new data has?

100%.

So there was last year we had an overall discussion, what is our main core KPI?

Is it net sales or gmv?

And we were, we start, I mean we basically started as traditional retailers.

We focused on 1p, hence net sales.

And then they said, listen, that doesn't make any more sense.

For instance, you couldn't compare a company which has no marketplaces, H&M versus a company which has marketplaces like Zalando.

Of course you need to compare them because they compete against each other.

So long story short, we said forget everything, change it to GMV and really gives the opportunity then to have 1p and 3p.

Now how do we do that?

First of all, every public information, obviously we take, I mean, that's for not only what they say, but we go, basically we have a scroll and we go to all conferences and try to get every kind of information, anything about the marketplace share.

Correct.

Why do we do that?

Because obviously we estimate it.

We don't know the truth.

We try really to get every year closer and closer to the truth.

Then how does a model work?

We have, as I said, these four major sources and for us there is actually information in the transaction data, whether you bought it, just if there is a second company involved or is it just Amazon directly.

Then you get actually quite a lot of information from the scraping, scraping, you see how dominant are certain companies in certain areas, how much is basically their own company or other companies.

And then, and I take the best Example for Amazon, obviously we have the seller, the selling share, the how many people bought a certain product, et cetera, et cetera.

And out of these points, we try to estimate.

Try to estimate?

You mean you feel that there is.

I'm a bit cautious.

It is really complicated.

So I would say it is better than you guys going directly to the company and say, let's try to estimate it.

I think we have a more systematic approach.

Could it be that we are wrong by 5 or 10% in one way, or rather 100%?

I mean, it's really a learning process over time.

Does it answer a little bit?

Yeah, absolutely.

And it sort of confirms what I thought when I first saw it, because I was like, okay, unless there is some data falling from the sky that I've never heard of, this is going to be really tough if they really want to do that.

And I did also myself find a few things that were just not, according to my information, not correct.

Like marketplaces that had a 3p share that were, for example, listed as not having 3p on the other way around.

But still, it is an interesting guide to just look at these numbers and get a feeling for how important is a marketplace for that retailer.

I'd like to come back to that image that you painted earlier of the winery where you say, okay, in the first year you put out new wine, might not be the best that you're producing.

So when you look at this new feature that you now have, active since last year, how long do you think it will take for the wine to, you know, get a medal?

First of all, just to show you a little bit even more complication, something like drop shipping.

Yes.

With.

I think it's Vita XL or many other companies.

Now, is it 3P, is it 1P or what is it?

There's a matter of definition.

In the detail and in the definition, there lies something.

How do you find certain things?

Still, I do believe it.

It's a very good exercise for us, Eli.

I believe.

And also, and the second part, that's actually a good one.

In a world where it's totally intransparent, is there value to have a 80% estimate and people can see it differently?

We do have, of course, people phoning us.

And when we speak to retailers, then they.

When we present them everything and then they say, you know what?

It's impossible.

Our monthly revenue for July, 5% under what we have, we think, sorry, 5%.

That is.

I do understand you.

That is fantastic.

Yes, that's actually really good.

It's.

I'm Able with my data not only to estimate your annual, but even your.

Your monthly revenue with basically an error margin of 5%.

You should kiss me.

Yeah.

With no input from the said company whatsoever.

Basically.

Yeah, I do understand them, of course, because listen, I thought that it's the truth.

So long story short, it's really.

I do believe in many, many ways we are by far the best estimate coming back 1p and 3p.

I do believe for our main markets and our main players, our data are extremely reliable, especially what you said when it comes to Greece and smaller players or Serbia.

And.

And there, of course, we invest a little bit less time and automate a little bit.

And there the degree of certainty is not as high.

So every year, again, that will get better and better.

Is there a moment where you say, now we know 100%?

Never.

Absolutely.

Maybe.

Let's go back to the things that you already can say with good confidence about 3p 1p shares.

Is there, you know, can you give us some overall trends that come from these numbers?

Can you already say, I don't know, we can say that 3p share is something that is growing stronger than 1p share or anything else in that matter.

Yeah, give me one second.

So again that I get my data right.

So on a global basis, for the moment, if you look at the GMV of all marketplaces overall, 85% is 3p.

And so the opposite, roughly 14% is 1p.

That is of course different in different countries.

In Europe, we have still a 1p share because we have.

Which is great.

Traditional companies which were able to reinvent themselves and more traditional companies always have a higher 1p share.

Best auto.

I mean, they're doing a great job and so their 1p is much higher.

Next.

So, long story short, 3p dominates.

It dominates, especially in Asia.

In Europe it still dominates.

It's higher, but not as much.

The next question was which part is growing more.

And there you can really see that 3P is growing much faster than 1P.

To be specific, 12% versus 8%.

So that's 50% higher growth rate.

Why is it asset like so you can push it more, et cetera.

So companies which are heavy in one P obviously do not grow as quickly as companies which, especially then in asia, which focus 100% on 3P.

Basically they started as huge marketplaces and never attempted to add their own goods in there.

Interesting.

I'm really going to be looking forward for everything else that is coming out of that figure because I think that is going to be highly helpful, especially for marketplace managers for deciding on which marketplace to invest next.

Because it's just if you have a retailer that is growing their marketplace highly and pushing for it, then you will have just a better life as a marketplace manager if you're active on that one as compared to a retailer that has their marketplace just as an additional option, just for very small areas of the assortment that they are not covering themselves.

And that gives you a glimpse into this internal reality that you hadn't had before.

So yeah, really looking forward to that.

From your perspective, 100%.

But even from the retailers, I mean retailers which said let's add a little bit of marketplace because it adds 10, 15%.

It is just a totally misunderstanding of actually the E commerce business model.

I mean, in my opinion, everybody who says I want to have a marketplace should have invest heavily into it and really grow it and see it as maybe for my core, I still need one piece, but the one which helps me to grow, which will basically guarantee my existence over the next five years, is 100% sweepy.

Okay.

I have to look a bit at the time because we have already been nerding about figures for nearly 40 minutes.

But I'd like to keep nerding for a bit.

That is just what's happening when we talk about numbers.

Really that's fine.

But you mentioned before, and I wanted to come back to that, that you are or have just launched a new tool which gives you the opportunity to look at or to comp Amazon Marketplaces in more depth.

Would you go a bit more into that?

What will you be offering here?

So we have launched two.

Sorry, two new products.

One was both customers request or one.

One was.

We had already an analysis of certain categories, but people said, listen, it's nice that I know the beauty market or the flagrance market, but what I really want to know is makeup or.

And now I'm really talking about, I have absolutely no clue, eyelash curlers, etc.

How large are they in a certain country?

Because that's how I need to define it.

We worked again with our French friend Claude on it now over six, seven months and we're able now really to go deep dive into 20,000 different categories.

So if that is something which is interesting, I mean that would be for us was a huge step and again to broaden the offer.

Absolutely.

The other two is much more operational and I would say not 100% new.

The categories is unique.

I don't know anybody who offers that.

And that is what we call Amazon Explorer.

It's indeed the name it's a theme.

We have the top 10Amazon marketplaces, Germany, of course, included.

And there you can look up all products and their revenues, all the brands and their revenues, and then categories in this specific marketplace or in other marketplaces.

And of course that's lovely.

A, to see your own brand, but even more important, how your competitors are performing in a certain way.

We do it not just totally by ourselves.

There are two companies.

One is called Keepa and one is called Smart Scout, which we use as help in order to define it.

But for us that was A, it's an input to many others, including the category Explorer and B, it's a super tool that was launched in last Tuesday.

Yeah, I saw that back end.

Yeah.

So I think the category manager is a really interesting addition.

I was just wondering when you were talking about the method, if you are breaking it down on such a small level, like for example, ICO eyelash curlers.

Sorry, I'm not using those either.

Do you have enough data to really make good assumptions on that small, small category?

What do we do is.

So we had a breakthrough in our scraping from companies.

So I said all the 50 top stores, we really go through all the websites, take all the data and basically catalog them.

That is one thing.

And interpreting and catalog them and getting sales signals, that was one thing.

And we couldn't solve it.

Thanks to Claude, we solved it.

Now that is one major source.

And the other source, of course, is the Amazon data, where you have really a lot of sales signals in them thanks to Amazon and their different ways of showing things.

And that combined helps us to.

To estimate the markets on this detailed level.

I would say, especially for the top 10 countries, these are very strong data when it comes to New Zealand, because we don't have.

There's no Amazon New Zealand.

I would say then these are rough estimates.

Interesting.

Okay, well, Friedrich, I think I could go on talking with you about numbers for another hour, but let's leave it at that and maybe just meet again for another update as soon as you have fresh Marketplace data.

Thank you very much for joining me today.

Thank you very much.

A pleasure.

Yeah.

And I hope all of you also had fun diving with us into the deep ends of the dataset of ECDB and learn something for your Marketplace business as well.

And yeah, I'll be really happy to welcome you to our next episode very soon.

Thank you for joining us today.

Bye bye.

Bye bye.

You listened to let's Talk Marketplace, the Marketplace podcast with Ingrid Lommer and Valerie Dichtel.